Border wall. Should Trump let the government shut down to get the wall?
He had made the stance that if he didn't get the funding, he would let the government shut down. Now, he's backed off that demand. What do you think?
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ANSWERS: 10
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No. Walls built on exploiting fear of "other" is a very weak position in addressing core problems. Trump working with Mexico's president to respond to displaced populations in Mexico is much better than stereotyping and demonizing all asylum seekers based on the bad apples highlighted in corporate media. That's like saying that because Dahmer was from Wisconson that all folks from Wisconsin are more likely to eat people. Problem: Being easily manipulated by fear by making broad generalizations about one group of people. Solution: Question any "news" that" suggests a "blame them" narrative by speaking with and getting to know that diversity in your community.
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Archie Bunker How is there any blaming, Roaring? Do we not have the right as a sovereign nation to decide who comes in our country and who doesn't? Does not a physical barrier stop, or at least slow down, illegal entry? It's not about diversity or fear. That's the easy way to play it off. Try using the logical approach and not the emotional one. Illegal immigration hurts our economy. The millions of taxpayer dollars spent on illegal immigrants. The lowering of wages and overburdening of social services. That's not fear, that's facts. -
Roaring Those with little or no power, oppressed in the country of their birth that make it here asking for asylum are burdening our system? How about the reactionary political maneuvering by labeling and justifying sending 15 thousand troops to the border? Do you know what is burdening all of us? The uber wealthiest getting a 1.5 trillion tax cut, which politically leads to justifying cutting social services (excepting the private prison industrial complex) which owns these holding camps. Emotional arguments are "....they're murders they're rapists, they're invaders......." An objective and just system of government evaluates who legitimately needs refuge, and who is not. INS functioned in this way. ICE operates aggressively and abusively and serve an isolationist mentality. So what position is more emotionally based? If you get your "news" from Fox, they are legally listed as an entertainment company which allows them to make shit up and not legally account for the false narratives. -
Archie Bunker I don't see that it's all about asylum, Roaring. Mexico offered them asylum and the vast majority turned them down. Why? Why travel the longest route possible to get to southern California, through a country that offered asylum, to get to the US? There are only about 6500 troops on the border, not 15,000. And that's nothing new. Bush and Obama both sent troops to the border to stem the flow of illegal immigration. Even Bill Clinton said that we're a nation of laws and need to stiffen the border against illegal immigration. Chuck Schumer said, "Illegal immigration is wrong, plain and simple." Apparently he thinks it's okay now. And if you want to get into a tax debate or a private prison debate, I'm game, but that's another thread I would think. Going to the tired "blame Fox News" is beneath you. You should have a better argument than that.
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Linda Joy The only real question here is do you believe everyone in this country should obey the laws of the country. If not go live where laws mean nothing. In America we have laws regarding immigration and anyone not obeying them is a criminal by definition. Those smuggling in children are not fit parents. First of all most children smuggled in are sold into the sex trade. What kind of parent would sacrifice their child for passage into the US and a better life for themselves? No, its not about asylum. They could have asked for asylum in two or three other countries before they got to the US. I think this was all staged by the democrats. -
Archie Bunker Damn right it was. They're using them as a political pawns. And there's another "non-existant" caravan on it's way north again. More political fodder for the libtards.
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Roaring Linda / Archie There are a percentage of despicable folks. But be careful not to throw the whole of them into one grouping and dismiss them all. Both corporate are guilty of political motivations to rally their bases. And both are guilty of policies of exploitation of cheap labor and resources south of the border. So its more complex than one grouping and a label.
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Linda Joy I'm not throwing them all in. Just the ones who actually break the law by gaining access through illegal means. I admire and totally accept those who come in by legal means. The vetting process is there for a reason. Its not for isolationism or elitism. Its for protection of the citizens of this country. But the vetting process also helps those who have problems and diseases get help so they can legally enter when they are safe. I'd like to challenge you to accept the difference between legal and illegal immigrants. And challenge you ask yourself why they choose the illegal method! This is not prejudice. And its not fear for myself, but everyone else's loved ones that may die because of playing fast and loose with THE LAW of immigration for this country. If you think the law is wrong change the law. Don't throw away laws. Surely you've seen how that has played out where they are toying around with doing away with the police! How many of those experiments have turned out well? NO!!! It encourages anarchy and people die!! Neither extreme works well.
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Linda Joy But thank you for showing us the other side of the sex trade/cheap labor exploitations. I totally agree! But I also understand growing up poor and some choices are not yours when you are a child. That's really another issue in itself because it happens outside of this issue.
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Linda Joy And I wish you'd both ask more questions! We need them!
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It's unfair to hijack the nation this way. Did we build sea fences to keep out the Cubans and Haitians?
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Archie Bunker
How are we hijacking the nation? And as far as the Cubans and Haitians, the water kept most of them out, but those we found on the water, for the most part, we turned them right back around to sail back south. -
mushroom
120,000 Cubans made it to Florida's shores and were put in camps waiting disposition. Are we talking the same order of magnitude to make this circus of a crisis as 5,000 in Mexico? -
Archie Bunker
I think you know that there are more than 5000 in Mexico trying to get here. -
mushroom
There are about 5 million unauthorized Mexican immigrants living in the US today, about half of all unauthorized immigrants, and a decline from almost 7 million in 2007. It doesn't seem to be a growing problem. "Emergency" is a vast overreaction. -
Linda Joy
What's your solution mushroom? Do you really think letting them in is the solution? Is it the laws or the enforcement that is failing here? Or are you saying there really is no issue it should go on as is and the media is the problem?
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Yep, shut it down! Let the Demwits know he's not willing to negotiate our national security which should have government funding EVERY session.
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Archie Bunker
I agree. Trump needs to dig his heels in and stand firm on this issue. That's one of the main reasons he was put into office. The Republicans had all three branches locked up and failed to do anything. Now they're crying.
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Yes, Definitely. Do you remember all the Democrats pushing for a wall?This time it's on them.We need a wall. Not a half ass one like Clinton built.
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Archie Bunker
2003 - "I am adamantly against illegal immigration." - Hillary Clinton. And as early as 2016, she was for the Wall. Strange how the winds blow. -
mushroom
Then Sen. Clinton voted for the 2006 "Fence Act" which has since proven to be ineffective. Even walls can be tunneled underneath. -
ReiSan
it is not so easy to tunnel under a wall. Guars are needed to watch for tunneling.
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I'm mixed. I don't believe in idea of the wall. However, I would like there to be a better immigration policy.
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Archie Bunker
A big wall with a big door. What's wrong with that? -
ReiSan
Walls work well. Prisons have them; celebrities have them; etc. -
Linda Joy
So does the Vatican. Who was it said good fences make good neighbors?
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Your country has NO greater need than a wall. Poverty doesn't come close. In case you don't get it I am being sarcastic.
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Archie Bunker
Illegal immigration brings down wages. How does that help? -
Archie Bunker
Cats - if you're worried about our poverty, maybe the democrats should give all that money to AMERICANS that are in poverty, not illegal immigrants. Shouldn't you take care of your own first? How about the homeless veterans? -
mushroom
Why not just tax businesses who hire the illegals, freeing up all those jobs? Yet even tourism-related business owners way up north cry whenever H2B visas are limited. They say they get better seasonal workers - without paying all the benefits.
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Why not? Clinton ('95-'96) and Obama (2013) did the same thing! All they are proving is that we can obviously get along without most of our government agencies! Less Government, Not more!
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Archie Bunker
Hell yeah! -
mushroom
Sure, everyone would like our airports to be open as they were 30 years ago, when you could run right up to the gate with your bag in tow seconds before the jet bridge was closed. (guilty as charged) Or would you?
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Yes, and if the Democrats refuse to compromise, let the president declare a national emergency and build it.
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Archie Bunker
Agreed. I think he needs to keep his heels dug in and stand firm. He promised us a wall. Don't renege on the deal now. -
mushroom
Maybe compromise is needed to see past a wall to smarter technology, enabling border agents to do more than just stand at a post. The Great Wall of China proved ineffectual too. -
Linda Joy
How about a high voltage fence? -
Archie Bunker
We got your point, ReiSan. Jeez. Lol -
Archie Bunker
Walls are effective. So was the Great Wall, shroom. The Great Wall kept numerous raids from the Huns at bay. Did it stop them all? Absolutely not, but we don't expect to keep all the illegals out with a wall either. But we certainly expect to stem the flow, which is what the Chinese did. And if walls don't work, why do rich people here in the States have walls around their houses, including Nancy Pelosi? -
Linda Joy
So rioters can break them down?
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I'll admit that I might be wrong, but I'm pretty certain that this wall idea is the stupidest idea ever. Contraband comes through the official entry points anyway. People willing to cross a hundred miles of barren desert are just going to figure out ways to improvise grappling hooks or ladders, and it's going to be far more expensive than what the White House is asking for starters. It'd probably be cheaper and more effective to build a series of dog houses along the border and employ guard dogs trained to sniff out illegal immigrants (which the DHS is already supposedly using at checkpoints up to 100 miles from the border).
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ReiSan
You are wrong indeed. The Wall is a fine idea. Guards can watch for ladders or tunneling.
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IMHO, future generations will take down the wall.
Wakko 
TBO 
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