I did not ask to be born, and I demand millions of fine choices, not just two terrible ones. No sane person would choose being tortured forever. It is much better not to be born. Thomas Jefferson said critically reading the Bible proves God does not exist. I had to read it daily from age 4 to almost age 18. Mom's father was a Baptist pastor, so I got the full treatment. I had the highest IQ in my high school's history, according to the principal. When I began school at age six, I was reading science books that the sixth graders could not comprehend. Science made me doubt the BIble by age six. Grandfather had a concordance, and looking in it helped me find contradictions in the Bible.

You did ask to be born! You don't remember? What was your IQ? Anyway you can choose happiness for your life or you can choose to be full of hate. You are the one sentencing yourself. My mom was a bar hop and my sister said she had a reputation. She cussed like a sailor and danced like no one was watching! I'm happier when I choose to believe. You do what you choose. And if you don't want to be here don't be! That can be your choice as well! added 6/2023. I'm wondering if contradictions were all you were looking for in The Bible... People usually see what they are looking for whether its good or evil.

I most certainly did not ask to be born. My IQ is 190. I choose happiness by being free of religions that teach hate of unbelievers. Christians and Muslims have been at war for centuries. Christians had Crusades, and Muslims have jihads. I am so much happier since I rejected my family's religion. In the Bible, I am a born sinner. I reject such con games. We are supposed to feel guilt at being born sinners and have fear of Hell to make us buy a pastor a new Rolex watch. I have no choice. I was born extremely intelligent, skeptical, critical and objective. I studied the major religions of the world, and that makes me far more objective than anyone who has been brainwashed with one religion. I have been in 39 states, Are you advocating suicide? I do not like Heaven or hell. I demand more choices that only two terrible ones.

There is no god. There is no hell. What you are discussing takes place in Imagination Land. And NOBODY has ever proven otherwise...

So make up your own religion where you have all the choices you want. Its not going to change the truth. You shouldn't fear that if you are as smart as you claim...

We are all entitled to believe what we choose to believe. And no one has to prove anything to anyone. No one needs to force their beliefs on another. Believe what you wish. It won't change the truth.

You didn't even answer the question. Why did God make people knowing he was just going to ship them off to hell (and please don't bring in pre-destination' - that's a very old, tired one). Also, you might want to have still be born and risk hell, but I wouldn't take such a terrible deal (be on earth for 100 years if you're lucky vs eternity in hell? Bad deal). But God never gave anyone a choice, and that's my point and question.

He created us because he loves us. Men are that they might have joy! And the scriptures teach us how to have that more abundantly! We were sent to Earth to gain a body to have all these wonderful experiences that we never would have been able to have without a body and to grow up frankly. To learn how to love one another more deeply, to grow compassion and empathy. And also to learn, as I did in my youth, that anger, pain and suffering come from sin. I'm simply calmer, happier and more peaceful when I choose to walk with God.

Should I also added a disclaimer please don't mention anything that might validly defeat my erroneous claim? I won't. I respect your right to your opinion.

I think you answered that question with seriousness so not sure why you're only now suggesting otherwise with that last sarcy post? Anyway, again, you didn't answer the question, and we're on a website called 'ANSWERbag...as in, answering questions, so it just seems odd you've posted a reply to a question yet don';t even answer the question. God is allegedly omnipotent an omnipresent. Yet he made people who had no choice in being born be, by default of being born, forced into an awful predicament not in their making at all. But God still made them knowing they'd be tortured in conscious torment forever and ever in hell (though, to be fair to the Christian God, the other holy book of the second largest monotheistic faith is very, very graphic in its descriptions of hell, and it's described more frequently)? I guess what you're really trying to covertly say in that post that God thinks of humans as a bit of a game and we're all pawns in his big grandiose story and opinion of himself? It's actually really manipulative and a type of blackmail actually. 'Loving' God (or other monotheistic deities)? Was he not happy enough with the angels he created? Maybe got a bit bored? Yeah well people being tortured in hell is awful. Have you ever burnt your finger or your hand on the top of the oven? Burns are some of the most painful things you can experience. If you've never seen someone with severe burns having the dressings changed - don't watch it. The agony of it...ugh. You know I think that truly terrible people can still have justice served without being rather than, say, being annihilated or something. Like that disgusting child killer in the film 'Changeling'. He was sentenced to hanging and the justice he got was tat he was genuinely terrified of dying to the point that he had to be partially dragged up the stairs. Then he had to just wait for the hatch to open, and he suffered a bit (not the easiest scene to watch). His last moments were filled with the same terror he inflicted on his victims. Isn't that enough of justice and there's no need for an eternal hell? Temporary hell for truly vile people where justice is truly served - yeah, cool with that.

I hate to break it to you, but you're not smarter than God. You don't know what's better for us than He does. In fact now that I think about it you're not even half smart! Why would anyone choose which punishment would be better or worse when they could simply choose to do right and be good which leads to true happiness? You can't even claim to have TRIED IT!! And its very obvious YOU ARE NOT HAPPY!! But hey, that's YOUR choice!

And I forgot to mention that we were created as eternal beings because God didn't want any of us destroyed! We are his children!

I am much smarter than the Bible's deity who is pathetically ignorant. I know pi is more than just 3, that the sky is not a solid dome 15 miles of less above us that can roll up like a scroll and make stars fall to Earth. and many more things. God has the primitive ignorance of illiterate Stone Age barbarians.

You're no smarter than your genes and environment have determined, if you are an atheist there is no free will so no ghost in the machine, so nothing to brag about after all.

There can be no free thinking in determinism, that would be an oxymoron.

I am a mutation. I am much more intelligent and stronger than anyone in my family. My brother played a guitar since he was a child, and he was in a band. I was never interested until I saw a flamenco guitarist perform. I told my brother about it. I took his guitar and immediately played flamenco chords the very first time I ever played a guitar. My brother tried and could not do so even after years of practice. You say I am what genes and environment determined, not God? Free will is a farce. I did not ask to be born, and I do not want only two bad choices. God is like a mugger who says, "Your money or your life!" I demand millions of fine choices, not just two lousy ones. I am proud to be an atheist. It shows I am strong and smart enough to overcome brainwashing with religion.

I don't know what the guitar playing has to do with it, my brother could play the guitar by ear, I have a good memory, other people are better at stuff than others, not sure where you are going with that? If you do not believe in God, then yes you are determined, that means you are here by random chance, for no reason, and are programmed by your brain, chemicals, and neurons, and the environment around you, hence no free will and so nothing to brag about. I don't know where you are getting this God is a mugger from, he is actually saying come home to me, or don't come home to me, the choice is yours. Where do you think you got your idea from?

If you cannot figure that out, I pity you. Okay, I shall explain. It is an illustration that I learn far more quickly than my family does. If you do not believe in Zeus, Jove, Amataerasu, Odin, Svarog, Ahuramazda, etc. you are determined. Free will is a farce. I had no free will about being born. God's free will is like a mugger's "Your money or your life!" I do not want to associate with such an inept, ignorant, sadistic savage. "Come to me or burn forever" is like a mugger offering only teo bad choices. Richard Dawkins observed that Hod is the most savage character in fiction.

Don't pity me, I'm not stuck in determinism with no meaning to my life and no free will. Zeus, Jove and Odin, and many of the other gods were the same god, and some of it did make sense, hence Athena came from Zeus's head because she was the "personification" of "wisdom, trickery, and war," she is Minerva in Greek, (as seen on the Capitol building as that is the head of state) Isis in Egyptian so on so forth, her brother was Mercury the god of merchants, and tradesmen who was also known as Hermes, and in Egypt Thoth so on so forth. God classes the love of money as the root of all evil so that is not his thing. In fact he points no gun, more accurately he says I will give you my son, so that you may believe in him and have eternal life. And Jesus having the fullness of the Father said.. I am the way the truth and the life. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish. Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? So you listen to the puppet Dawkins.

Minerva was the Roman copy of the Greek goddess Athene, Mercury is the Roman copy of the Greek god Hermes. I do pity you for having guilt and had fear forced upon you to make you tithe, It is a wasted life to allow a crue con game to dictate your every action, word and thought. It is absurd to claim all gods are the same. They each have personalities of the humans who invented them. God does worse than point a gun and give you two choices: give him all of your money or be killed. I do not like Heaven or Hell. Zeus gave us 5 choices for the after life, and that is better than just 2. God is too incompetent, dumb, unjust, sadistic and psychotic foe me to want him near me. Most politicians say they are good but quickly disprove it. This fictional character called God is the worst monster in fictions. You waste your time writing books here. I already heard that "Gao Pei" when I was a boy. It makes less sense now than it did then.

So you know hermes, ever read the Hermetica? I don't feel guilt or fear, see Pei your judging my experience by your own experience, I haven't been brought up or forced into any religion or belief, I don't even go to church, and I don't see any of this as a cruel game, neither does it dictate my every action word and thought, but I do get where you are coming from because you clearly was brought up this way. If you've read about the many of the gods of different eras and countries you will know that they are the same, when people had gods they were just labelled a different name in a different region, even when new kings took the throne or like when Egypt which was north and south became one, the gods morphed into each other. I don't know where you are coming from with this "give me all your money or be killed," in the bible God gives us free will, if he forced you to worship him that would make him a monster, and most people that have God find purpose in life, have comfort, have meaning, none of which non belief can give you, because there is no meaning to life in non belief everything came about by random chance, and no matter what you do, or your children do, whether mass murderer or nurse, or doctor, or sales assistant, or volunteer, or rapist, when the world is over it will add up to zero, it begins and ends with no meaning. It also means that there is no objective morality, no right or wrong, just indifference and whatever is in vogue. You have no God given rights, which are rights granted to you by birth, instead you are given human rights, and human rights can be taken by the very humans who control and gave them to you, what's interesting about atheists is they are so keen to rid the world of religious belief and give the world no meaning, no objective morality, no in born rights, and no reason to see humans as anything other programmed robots (determinism), that they end up devaluing life and that's a dangerous place to be, and having read about the most influential people in history including Darwin this is exactly what they want, there are a few men that guide the evolution of mankind and how they should think. I came about my belief through a long journey, and I've read a lot of texts, I was an atheist for years, I thought I was freeing theists from brainwashing too, and I encourage examining your beliefs, good for you; but remember some theists have earned their right respectfully to believe as they do, not because of books but because of a personal experience, they may have tasted something beyond the veil. And is that so hard to believe in a world with quantum physics? People demand evidence they can see with their five senses. Our senses are limited, can you see all there is to be seen, or hear all sounds? Can you see energy vibrating at a certain level? There are some things we cannot know with these limited senses, but once in a while someone may experience something in a different way altogether, but are unable to explain it, because as soon as they try, people will grasp that concept and put in it a book, and people will cling to that book reading every verse and chapter off by heart, but missing the message, like staring at a finger pointing to the moon.

"I hate to break it to you, but you're not smarter than God." Oh really? Which god would that be? Is it the same god that you blab about all day long, yet you can never prove this god-creature to anyone? That's nice... go take your meds.

To what 'meds' do you refer, OrangeDon? And what does an illness, or a headache have to do with it?

I don't understand why some atheists spend so much time and energy vehemently fighting something they claim doesn't even exist.

Your using a "Jehovah's Witness" interpretation of the 144,000. That is NOT the total number that will be saved. That's the number of Jewish converts to Christianity during the Tribulation period. 12,000 from each tribe. There is no limit as to how many will be saved. He wishes ALL to come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

You are right anoname ,there will be more than 144,000 who are saved the Bible mentions those who will live on the earth as many as the sands of the sea ,there is no number given of those who will have the opportunity to live in the earth forever Revelation 21:4 shows Death will be done away with 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes,+ and death will be no more,+ neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.+ The former things have passed away.”. And Psalms 37 states 9 For evil men will be done away with,+ But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.+ 10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;+ You will look at where they were, And they will not be there.+ 11 But the meek will possess the earth,+ And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.+ Psalm 37: 29 The righteous will possess the earth,+ And they will live forever on it.+

We atheists are fighting human tyrants who want to force their groundless beliefs onto everyone, not imaginary gods.

Pfft, you are forcing your atheist belief on theists, a theist doesn't want a belief that removes God given rights, and leaves them open to human rights, when rights are given by human's and are not inborn, then they can be taken from them by humans, only communism would do that, in fact Karl Marx said how he would abolish religion. Our belief gives meaning to life, gives man the freedom of choice, and gives them a way out of the slavery of the flesh and sinful desire, You're belief gives NO meaning to life it being just random chance and you being merely made up of neurons and chemicals, it gives no freedom since it is determinism, and offer nothing else other than these things, true atheism is nihilist, are you intellectually honest enough to admit that?

And believe me you have been brainwashed, do you know anything of Charles Darwin? Have you even read Charles Darwin?

How absurd to claim I am forcing my opinion upon anyone. There are no gods to give rights or anything else. Religions need to be abolished. They are con games, and that is illegal. No desirable choice is offered by God. I do not need a book of terrible fiction and giving preachers 10% of my money to give me meaning. Atheism is not nihilism. You have no logical or truthful arguments. I am much more intelligent and honest than you are. I overcame brainwashing. I certainly do not believe you. I read some about Darwin in college Zoology class. and I have read more on my own, You are the person who is brainwashed, not me. .

In another paragraph you claim it to be your purpose to abolish religion. If religions are abolished what will you give in return, religion gives man hope, it gives him meaning, it gives him purpose, you offer meaninglessness, no hope, and determinism, and you put the life of humans into other humans hands. Atheism is also a con game and is there to lead to communism and worse, there has been more bloodshed in the 20th Century than any religion put together, and you call that progress? Atheism is nihilism, how else would you explain a meaningless purposeless existence? So you've read Darwin, so what was his first book called, or any book for that matter?

I did not say that. Can't you read.? Religions are abolished in Communists nations, and that is one great idea they have. In return for inane lies, making people feel guilty and afraid to force them to tithe, I offer freedom from such gross tyranny. I find my own meaning, and it certainly is not paying a lying con man-preacher 10% of my money. False hopes are bad. We can all find our own purposes and meaning in life without an evil scam. Atheism is not a con game. I do not take of give 10% of anyone's money. I pity you. You have Stockholm Syndrome and make false accusations against atheists. Darwin wrote many books. "Voyage Of The Beagle" was the first one if I recall correctly.

"We atheists are fighting human tyrants who want to force their groundless beliefs onto everyone, not imaginary gods, " However, if you read the question it was written by someone who clearly doesn't believe in God, hence this was instigated by a non believer, and now you have come on here claiming that we are forcing our religion on you, go figure? Yes, abolishing religion like communism is a great idea, it's one step forward to having no individuality or rights fantastic, 110 million deaths, can see why your a fan.

False hope for you Pei, real hope and meaning for theists. Atheist takes away your God given rights, natural born rights for human rights by humans, tell me where the meaning is in your life in a random universal that began for no reason and will end for no reason so that anything you do, has no value in any objective way? Your atheist belief of evolution was given to you by Charles Darwin, it was actually given to him by Eramus Darwin who was a 33rd degree freemason, you cannot be a freemason if you're an atheist. Charles Darwin wrote the book Origin Of the Species for the Natural Selection of the FAVOURED RACES! He hated what he called the negroe and hated the irish and the common man as he said they breed like rabbits are of low intelligence and he was afraid that they would outbreed the superior intellectuals, This is why his family married into other members of the X-club who were eugenicists, members of the Royal Society were either Rosicrucian or Freemasons, neither of which can be atheists, so the idea they are selling you is NOT the one the personally believe in so why do it? Hence, you have been brainwashed. If you have no objective meaning to your life, no morality, so no objective right or wrong, no God given rights, then it is perfectly fine to knock a few off you off because the planet cannot sustain you any more, you are merely an animal anyway it is no different to culling cattle, and you have no moral objective argument against it, you have demeaned your own existence. .

PCL, you are jumping in here trying to force your atheism on everyone. Exactly what you claim to hate about Christians. Too bad you're not smart enough to see that. Or the fact that atheism is nillism. You have no options after death you simply cease to exist, from what little I know about atheism. Am I wrong about that? I'm actually thankful I'm not so smart I'm no longer capable of learning.

I do not call that love when he says, "Kiss my 'eongdeongi' or burn forever!" That is much worse than a mugger saying, "Your money or your life'. I do not like Heaven of Hell. Give me millions of fine choices, not just two miserably bad ones.

LOL! What 'scripture' did you get that quote from, PCL?

The questions holds water well. God was quite incompetent as a creator if he could only make humans and snakes that badly displeased him. It is dumb to blame all humans for the actions of just two and to blame all snakes for the actions of one. Later, the snake was said to be The Devil, and so God is even more unjust to blame all snakes for the Devil's doings. I am a painter. If a painting I create displeases me, I correct the errors or start over if the errors are too bad. Different paints have different qualities. It is easier to correct oil paints than water colors. I would never even consider killing a son I might have to compensate for my errors on a painting.

Hello "Pei Chia-Li," quote: "The questions holds water well." Your question is narrow-minded. As we know God created Adam and Eve, they had complete freedom to live in friendship and trust with Him, but they chose to rebel is what you fail to see. Genesis 3:1-7 "Now the serpent was more crafty (subtle, skilled in deceit) than any living creature of the field which the LORD God had made. And the serpent (Satan) said to the woman, Can it really be that God has said, You shall not eat from any tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said to the serpent, We may eat fruit from the trees of the garden, 3 except the fruit from the tree which is in the middle of the garden. God said, You shall not eat from it nor touch it, otherwise you will die. 4 But the serpent said to the woman, You certainly will not die! 5 For God knows that on the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened [that is, you will have greater awareness], and you will be like God, knowing [the difference between] good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make one wise and insightful, she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of the two of them were opened [that is, their awareness increased], and they knew that they were naked; and they fastened fig leaves together and made themselves coverings."

Knowing the Bible indicates that Adam and Eve were FREE to choose, they had disobeyed God when He clearly told them they will die the day they eat from the tree of knowledge. It is knowledge to know what is good and bad. When we further read in Genesis, God designed that Adam would represent the entire human race, his sin was catastrophic not only for him but for us. Romans 5:18 "So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

Quote: "I am a painter. If a painting I create displeases me, I correct the errors or start over if the errors are too bad." Not a problem. You make it too easy for me. That's why God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish in [hell] but have Eternal Life. (John 3:16)

God is inane hate. Killing your own son brutally to compensate for your incompetence as a creator is beyond insane. I do not want Heaven or Hell. That is like a mugger saying, "Your money of your life"< God is far worse than a mugger. Adam and Eve never existed. Judging all humans by two of them is dumb and unjust. God is an evil tyrant. I am responsible only for myself. Fictional Adam has nothing to do with me. You are narrow-minded. Save me from sermons. I was forced to attend church from birth until nealry 18, so I have heard such stuff many times. I am not responsible for my mother's, brother's, etc. deeds. If they commit crimes, I will not be arrested. God is so dumb, illogical, unjust, etc. I would not want to be around such a psychotic and people who worship him for one second, not to mention forever, Quoting extremely bad fiction is a waste of time. I studied world religions, so I know God is no better than millions of other gods.

Quote: "Killing your own son brutally to compensate for your incompetence as a creator is beyond insane." God did not kill His Son. Jesus offered His life for the atonement of sins. John 10:18 "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded." Jesus' will is based on freewill. It is the same example with us. We choose to do what we want. God grants our decisions, just as Scripture tells us that Jesus could have avoided death if He wanted to.

What is it with this annoying habit is saying, "Quote......." constantly. I know what I just said, and so does anyone else who can read. That rubbish about Jesus dying for out sins makes no sense. It is just very bad fiction. If God is so powerful, he can just forgive us without killing anyone. You imply that God had to obey some rules, and that indicates a God over God who makes rules that God must follow, even if he kills his son in the process. I am not offered any acceptable choices by this God thing. Heaven and Hell are both terrible. You just mindlessly quote cherry-picked Bible verse. .

Quote: "That rubbish about Jesus dying for out sins makes no sense." It makes perfect sense to have a sinless Savior die for the sins of mankind. The sacrificial lamb is a symbolic reference to when Abraham was taking Isaac for a sacrifice and Isaac asked his father where is the animal for the burnt offering and Abraham replied: "God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering." The animal that appeared was a ram. In this case, Jesus offered Himself as the lamb of sacrifice. The good thing is that animal sacrifices no longer apply in the New Testament.

No, it makes no sense at all. If God is omnipotent, he could have made sinless humans. If he must sacrifice his son, that means there is a more powerful god who made rules for him to follow. Sacrifices never applied to sane, intelligent humans.

Pei, just because YOU don't want it to make sense does not mean it's true. To further repeat myself, even if it takes a hundred times as you can count on that: the decision is yours to take advantage of your freewill. Quote: "Sacrifices never applied to sane, intelligent humans." Everyone has sacrificed themselves. A sacrifice involves giving up something you want or something you desire for the greater good to help others.

God is worse than a mugger who draws a pistol and says to his victim, "Your money or your life!" God says, "Kiss my 'mong' or burn forever. That is gross tyranny, not love or choice. I did not choose to be born, and if I knew I would be tortured forever, I never would agree to be born. I hate both Heaven and Hell, so I demand millions of fine choices, not just two terrible ones.

You don't have to be tortured forever, that is the point. The New Testament is a beautiful gift from God in order to return us to our state of union with God from which we fell. In the beginning this world was not full of violence, there was no death, as Isaiah says the wolf will lay down with the lamb. God gave us and only us free will, the ability to choose, we chose to obey satan, giving into temptation and separate from God, despite this God says I will give you my Holy Spirit you can come home to me. https://www.biblehub.com/bsb/romans/8.htm

As I've also said, you do exist, and if not from God, then you exist for no reason and for no meaning, and due to determinism you have no free will, so no free thinking.

71% of the world's people do not believe in God. I do not need bad fiction used in a con game to give me meaning. I think freely, but brainwashed zombies cannot. The Bible's basic plot is goofy. God was an incompetent creator who was badly displeased with the first humans and snake, so he condemns all future humans and snakes. That is so dumb and unjust. Centuries later, God has his son brutally to compensate for his incompetence as a creator. God is clumsy, dumb and tyrannical. Oh well, such savages that invented God were to dumb to make a better one. .

Lol! I know that's a lie, and intellectually dishonest, where's your evidence? You cannot think freely in determinism it's an oxymoron. What part is free from neurons chemicals, and environmental factors to do the thinking? Nachash in Hebrew means shining one, enchanter, whisperer. Oh dear you really don't understand the bible. Look if you want to understand I don't mind trying to help, because I use to think the same, I took it all literally, and thought theists are foolish, until I looked into atheism, and the movers and shakers behind that. But if you have merely come on here to talk at me and not listen, then I certainly don't want to waste your time, let alone my own, and I bid you good day on your journey.

Nothing I said is a lie. You lie horribly about me. You are intellectually dishonest. It is brainwashed zombies who cannot think freely. I understand the Bible fra better than you do. I began reading it at age 4, since my maternal grandfather was Baptist pastor and he and wife taught school. I was strong-willed and objective all of my wife, so I overcame the brainwashing and doubted the Bible by age six. I do not have time to help you to understand the Bible. Help me to understand the Kojiki, Tao Te Ching, Quran, Homeric Hymns, Book Of The Dead, Eddas, etc.

There isn't more 71% of non believers in the world, even atheists know this Pei and saying so is intellectually dishonest, everyone knows that is untrue given the amount of countries and their different religious affiliations. I asked for your evidence and you haven't provided it to back your claim. Pei you cannot think freely if you believe in determinism, do you believe in determinism if not what do you believe in? I too turned away from religion Pei, I was an atheist for years, because I took everything literally, I wasn't reading it the right way, such as Galatians says about Hagar and Sarah, they represented two covenants one of the slave as they are of the flesh, and one free as they are of the promise. So I've stood in those shoes, but to truly be a free thinker you have to shine the spotlight on where all your beliefs came from including the one you have now, Buddhism taught me to question everything I believe and we should? Finally, I believe your last comment is merely sarcasm as I cannot teach you about" etc,"but I will say this, there are similarities in many of the religions many speak of visitors from some where else coming to earth and the beginning of civilisation, and having guided civilisation, just as the Kojiki mentions, the Quran is the holy book of Islam and the prophet Mohamed, muslims believe that Christ is the messiah, but do not believe that he was the son of God and died on the cross, so no resurrection. Tao Te Ching, means everything is Tao it is a path that one takes with ones own intuition, as the knowing of life cannot be grasped as a concept. Buddism is similar, one must practice awareness, which is a worthwhile pursuit anyway since people react a lot of the time in unawareness, and to question every idea, as it is concepts that prevent us from experiencing the world as it really is, because as a child you experienced it in awe, and then labels dulled that down, the Homeric hymns are a collection of thirty-three anonymous ancient Greek hymns celebrating individual gods, now given the number I'd say this was part of the secret societies and given the gods such as Dionysus which had a the cult of Dionysus this may be to do with ritual. The Book of the Dead is an Egyptian book of spells, to guide souls to the afterlife, interestingly in Washington the Washington Monument is the penis of Osiris and the vesica pisces is the vulva of Isis, this is sex magic, the phallus symbol or obelisk is seen in the water which represents As above so below. The Codex Regius is a collection of Norse Mythology, and is far too in depth to summarise in a small square. But as I said, I'm guessing you don't care about any of this, anyway.

Despite the Catholic Church having committed violence, the teachings of Christianity teach people to turn the other cheek, and as for hell, Christianity teaches that Christ died for all, so that no more people have to die and so defeating Satan (known in Judaism as the Angel of Death), hardly "die for your religion." In the 20th Century millions of people have died under non religious regimes than religious ones and so the theory of religion being the best way to brainwash people into dying for their religion or committing violence is not proven. In fact history shows that dying for a religion was not the greatest cause of death, it was always die for more territory or power, exactly the same as today.

Religion was not conceived in the 20th Century. The oldest religions taught people to worship their kinds and their local lords, so territorial disputes in ancient times invoked religion in order to guarantee volunteers. From those ancient religions was born Zoroastrianism, and from that was born Judaism, and from that came Christianity, many centuries or possibly millenia later. Hell is not really a Christian concept. The term is borrowed from pagan religion. The European-American version of Christianity is sort of an amalgamation of the teachings of Paul and pagan traditions. It has a lot to do with the teachings of Christ, but there are a lot of extra things crammed in there, too. For example, Jesus never ate pork and believed that pork was unclean, yet modern Catholics and Protestants eat tons of pork, believing it is okay.

You're right it wasn't conceived in the 20th Century, and despite that there have been over 100 million deaths due to non religious belief in a more modern time. The oldest religions were actually where people buried their dead in a womb like ochre in the earth, because they saw that man came from the vagina Venus one of the oldest religious statues, I believe the oldest is that of the lion goddess. If you follow back some of the oldest religions they actually go back to tells, and this is more to do with money or crops than it is religion, almost like the oldest banking system. This is like the pangs of civilisation when man stopped being hunter gatherers and started tilling the land, this of course set man up to be controlled as whoever controls the crops controls the populas (nothing to do with religion). So again it's always to do with power and land. This is where the story of Enki bringing Me's to Sumer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_(mythology) comes from which is echoes the stories of the nachash (shining one) bringing knowledge of good and evil to mankind along with the Book of Enoch and the Watchers bringing occult secrets, science, technology,Agriculture, the use of cosmetics, metallurgy, medicine, astrology, astronomy and much more, and Promethus bringing fire (knowledge) to mankind (he can been seen outside the Rockfeller foundation). These stories are not meaningless, they point to something that changed in man and life itself. Same as when you go back to the beginning of civilisation you see them domesticating cattle and grasses, the irony being we ended up imprisoning ourselves and domesticating ourselves. The reason people eat pork is because Jesus said it is not what goes in the mouth that defiles it but what comes out of it. Despite what you want to believe Christianity has got a hidden mystery in it, in fact it says so very clearly, "the mystery of all ages hidden from the beginning of the world," even the freemasons admit it and they acknowledge the line of Cain who was the first builder, Tubal cain the first blacksmith, Jubal first musicians these stories are all very similar and is a knowledge that has been passed down the line usually through occult mysteries. Even with The Royal society, you couldn't be a member without being a freemason or a Rosicrucian. And you cannot be a freemason if you are an atheist.

"The reason people eat pork is because Jesus said it is not what goes in the mouth that defiles it but what comes out of it." Matthew 15 has nothing to do with eating pork. In it, Jesus says it's okay to not wash your hands before you eat bread. To be clear, Jesus never ate pork and told people to obey the Levitical laws (Matthew 5:18), which forbid the consumption of pork (Leviticus 11:7-8).

Jesus couldn't eat pork because he was to be perfect and obey the law, as he came to fulfil the law, the law being that there should be a perfect sacrifice in replacement of the person who sins, as God said the wages of sin are death. Jesus became that perfect sacrifice and when he was nailed to the cross he nailed both sin and death to the cross, so that anyone who believed in him and followed him, God would raise with him. Those who choose not to believe in Christ are still under the mosaic law and have to fulfil all of it which is impossible, hence why God sent Christ, Christ said Love the lord God with all your heart and soul, and love thy neighbour as thyself, this fulfils the whole of the law, Christ came with the New testament hence the name.

The Old testament teaches eye for an eye. Christ said turn the other cheek, if they say to walk one mile go two, if they take your tunic, give him your cloak also. Jesus said it is murder to be angry at another for no reason. Jesus said if you look at another woman with lust in your eyes you commit adultery. He said the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. Jesus healed people on the Sabbath day. John 1: 9-13 The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God— children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God.

Those are all good, but have nothing to do with pork.

I addressed the pork in the previous paragraph. The latter was to demonstrate how Jesus differed in teaching from the old testament. If Jesus Christ doesn't nail sin and death to the cross, if no one believes in the grace of God and the resurrection, then the New testament message is lost.

So, is your position that the Gospels should stand alone as the law for Christians, and that the Old Testament no longer applies? What about other New Testament books that refer the old laws?

Orthodox Jews (since many Jews are atheist today) follow the Old Testament because they do not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah (Moshiach). As I've said before, Christ came in to save us from the law, the law was brought about in order for man to know sin, it wasn't meant to be the be all and end all, if that was the case then there was no reason for Christ, and since man cannot fulfil the law he has no redemption. Christ followed the law because he was perfect in everyway he had to be in order to be the perfect sacrifice, he also had the fullness of the father within, which is the seven spirits mentioned in Isaiah 1) Spirit of the Lord, 2) Spirit of Wisdom, 3) Spirit of Understanding, 4) Spirit of Counsel, 5) Spirit of Strength, 6) Spirit of Knowledge and 7) the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord. By following Jesus, you die with him on the cross, putting away the old self, and are reborn of the Holy Spirit, you are saved by grace, not by acts. The Holy spirit dwells within man, hence the law is put on the heart, and the law as Jesus said can be summed up in this way "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love thy neighbour as thyself." There has always been two covenants one of the flesh and one of the spirit, if you are not reborn of the spirit, then you are still of the flesh. We lost our union with God in the fall, Christ is the way the Father reconciles us to him so he can be all and IN all.

So..., what about the two questions I asked in my last comment?

I answered them bostjan are you not reading my responses?

I suppose I am confused. Jesus says in Matthew 5 that He has not come to abolish the law. You have not made clear whether you believe the law still applies or not, only that Jesus offered another way to be saved that works around the law. But are you suggesting that Jesus taught anything other than obeying the laws of Moses? If so, what is the basis for this? Being able to push your sins off onto someone else (Jesus) doesn't make them okay to continue. If not, then why eat pork?

Jesus says that He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. In other words, Jesus’ purpose was to establish the Word, to embody it, (John 1:14) and to fully accomplish all that was written. “Christ is the culmination of the law” (Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.). The predictions of the Prophets concerning the Messiah would be realized in Jesus; the holy standard of the Law would be perfectly upheld by Christ, the strict requirements personally obeyed, and the ceremonial observances finally and fully satisfied. Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law in at least two ways: as a teacher and as a doer. He taught people to obey the Law (Matthew 22:35–40; Mark 1:44), and He obeyed the Law Himself (John 8:46; 1 Peter 2:22). In living a perfect life, Jesus fulfilled the moral laws; in His sacrificial death, Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws. Christ came not to destroy the old religious system but to build upon it; He came to finish the Old Covenant and establish the New. Jesus came not to destroy the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill them. In fact, the ceremonies, sacrifices, and other elements of the Old Covenant were “only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves” (Hebrews 10:1). The tabernacle and temple were “holy places made with hands,” but they were never meant to be permanent; they were but “copies of the true things” (Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.). The Law had a built-in expiration date, being filled as it was with “external regulations applying until the time of the new order” (Hebrews 9:10). In His fulfilment of the Law and Prophets, Jesus obtained our eternal salvation. No more were priests required to offer sacrifices and enter the holy place (Hebrews 10:8–14). Jesus has done that for us, once and for all. By grace through faith, we are made right with God: “He forgave us all our sins, having cancelled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross” (Colossians 2:14). As the bible says, through one earthly man came death, and through one spiritual man, came life. John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

So, if a person truly believes in Jesus Christ, then he follows Jesus Christ, and he taught to love the Lord God with all your heart and to love your neighbour as yourself (this latter law fulfils the ten commandments because if you love God you are not going to be guilty of idolatry and if you love thy neighbour you are not going to steal his things or commit adultery with his wife. But most importantly Jesus showed us what to do, Jesus died on the cross in doing so as the perfect sacrifice he nailed sin and death to the cross because the wages of sin are death, and what they used to do was sacrifice animals in placement of themselves and the death they deserved for their sin, well Jesus was once and for all that sacrifice. Then Jesus says follow me, which means one must die to self, hence the old self dies, (the flesh self), and is reborn of the spirit, the Holy spirit of God. The Holy spirit becomes our councillor, and works in us to perfect us, hence the law is on our hearts. The prophets had the holy spirit settle on them, but in Christ, God gave his fullness Colossians 2:9 , which are the seven spirits before the throne mentioned in Isaiah 11:2. Ephesians 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through "His Spirit in the inner man," that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height; to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Because in the end once we become one in Christ, God will draw everything to himself in reconciliation so that he may be all and IN all. 1 Cor 15:28.

Ok, got it, so follow Jesus, who didn't eat pork and said to follow the law, so don't eat pork.

Ephesians 2:15-16 Galatians 3:23-26, Romans 10:4 We are obviously speaking two different languages, which is fine, but I can't explain any of this more than I have already, without repeating myself.

Jesus did not eat pork because he had to fulfil the law, he was perfect, we cannot be justified by our works, we are separated from God we cannot be perfect. So when Christ died, we died, the baptism signified death, as did the flood, and we are reborn as a NEW creation of the spirit, so you are talking things of the flesh, not of the spirit. Galatians 2:15 We who are Jews by birth and not Gentile ‘sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and NOT by works of the law, because by works of the law NO ONE will be justified. 17But if, while we seek to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, does that make Christ a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18If I rebuild what I have already torn down, I prove myself to be a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I DIED TO THE LAW so that I might live to God. 20 I HAVE been crucified with Christ, and I NO longer live, but CHRIST LIVES IN ME. The life I live in the body, I live by FAITH in the Son of God, WHO LOVED ME AND GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR ME. (wages of sin are death/sacrificial lamb). 21 I DO NOT set aside the GRACE of God. FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COMES THROUGH THE LAW, THEN CHRIST DIED FOR NOTHING.” This is why Christ said Mark 7:18 He asked. “Do you not understand? NOTHING that enters a man from the outside can defile him, 19 because it DOES NOT ENTER THE HEART, but it goes into the stomach and then is eliminated. Again, "For the law was given by Moses, but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ." We are not saved by the law, but by the grace of God, in his son Christ.

Yes, we are clearly going in circles, but, from my perspective, it is because you aren't directly addressing anything I've said in the thread. The whole thing about dietary laws is just one aspect of this, but it's easy to laser-focus on, because there is very little gray area. Either it is permitted to eat it or not. Maybe there are some extenuating circumstances, but that's not even entered the discussion. It's a simple yes or no answer, really. It's not you, either, it's every time I, or most other skeptics, get into a discussion with any Christians on here- the modus operandi is the same. Skeptic asks yes/no question. Answer from Christian is a Bible verse that doesn't address the question. Skeptic points out that the verse is unrealted, but Christian posts more verses. I get the feeling that the strategy is to exhaust the other person and hope that interest in the discussion goes away. It is very easy to find a verse in the Christian canonical Bible that forbids the consumption of pork. Leviticus 11:7-8. Right? Now, if you want to justify it as permissible, all you have to do is post exactly one (no more, no less) Bible passage that states a contrary position with just as much clarity. Your first answer to this was John 1:9-13, which makes no mention of dietary laws, pork, or anything even tangentially related to the discussion. Everything after that is an argument that is difficult for me to follow, honestly. Something about Jesus fulfilled the law, but didn't abolish the law, therefore eat pork... it really doesn't make objective sense if you give it a moment's thought. You either follow Jesus or not. If Jesus was the perfect example to follow, then why not try to be like him? It seems to me like the answer is a series of circular logic and mental gymnastics because people like bacon. Once again, Mark 7 is about Jesus telling his disciples not to wash their hands before they eat. I think it is 1) ridiculous to think that such a practice is sanitary at any rate, and 2) a stretch to think that this relates to eating pork. But as you pointed out, we've been through this discussion before.

To be succinct. I am asking for one passage where the Bible specifically says that either pork is okay to eat or that Levitical law is repealed, or else to simply say that no such passage exists.

Right I can tell you where in the NT some Christians take that all animals were claimed as clean. Acts 10:11-15 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: 12 Wherein* were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 1 Tim 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. However, pork is forbidden because the verses are taken out of context. If you continue to read Acts it is talking about no man being unclean. What I was trying to explain, whether badly, that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Christ, so though he follows the law, he is not saved by it.

If you are interested then here is an explanation with verse that may making understanding mans spiritual dilemma easier to understand, and why he was given the law, but is not justified by the law, but by faith in Christ. https://biblehub.com/library/watson/the_ten_commandments/3_1_mans_inability_to_keep.htm

Some meats were forbidden for a multitude of reasons, the following link will show why. Jews do not believe Jesus was the messiah, but you can see that they believe when their messiah comes, pork will be clean because you are talking about earth verses spirit, Adam was the earthly man given to lust of the flesh, but Christ was the spiritual man, given to fruits of the spirit. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2376474/jewish/Pigs-Judaism.htm

I can't get the first of those last two links to work, because the format of the site cuts off some of your message on my browser. I suppose I don't understand why you keep coming back to saying things like "man is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Christ, so though he follows the law, he is not saved by it," so, we can either move on or we can delve into that. As for the passage, it does not say to eat pork, at least not clearly. Peter himself questions the validity of his vision in the passage, and even after the voice in the vision says that everything is clean, the chapter ends with Peter insisting people be circumcised, which has everything to do with the old testament laws. The second link you posted says that pork will only be okay to eat once pigs start chewing their cud.

The reason the law was brought in was so that man could understand sin, before this man didn't know that he was sinning. However, that wasn't to be the end of it, since man knew that the wages of sin were death, so even though the law allowed for sacrifice of animals in place of the person, the man was always destined to die because he couldn't not sin, as he had become imperfect in the fall from God, as he was now separate. So the solution to reunite man with God was Christ, Christ contained the seven spirits of God, he had the fullness of God, he was perfect, and so Christ became the eternal sacrifice for all man's sins, he took both sin and so death on himself and nailed it to the cross, so that if a man believes in Christ and what he did, then they are to follow him, they repent (turn away from the self of flesh), they are baptised (baptism in water as the flood so cleaned the earth this is death), then they are reborn, they are given the Holy Spirit who lives in them, they are not their own Christ bought them, hence you become one body in Christ, we die with Christ on the cross, and are born of God. You are earthly man, you are baptized in Water, then you are given the Spirit, and then you will be baptized in the second death, the Fire, that will do away with the material and the chaff. The law has to be followed but it is proven that it cannot bring you salvation, you harken for your union with God, that comes from Christ, and faith, the faith that was lost in the Garden of Eden, when Adam turned away from God and towards vanity, "I want to be like God." Which is something he still does everyday, that's the trap of the ego. With regards to the second part of your query, the passage later on in Acts explains what the vision was about, Acts 10:17 shows Peter doubted what the vision was about. Acts 10:28 shows the meaning. "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." Yes, the Jews believe that pork will only become ok once the world is perfected.

I don't suppose I follow the flow of logic from my last post to yours. Nor do I really follow the logic of several other things that I suppose are inconsequential to the discussion which is already far off on a tangent to the OP question. Above all, I still don't really feel comfortable that the question is answered whether it's forbidden to eat pork or not, since I pointed out the passage that strictly and succinctly forbids it, and the logic used to allow it is a whole bunch of vague and unrelated passages coupled with a whole bunch of (frankly) hand-waving. It's a terrifically simple question.

Hades was the brother of Zeus and Poseidon in ancient Greek myths. He presided over the underworld where most people want after death. He was not a place but a god. A few very bad people were punished in Tartarus, and special people went to the Elysian Fields of the Isles of the Blessed. A few very special people went to Olympus to live with the gods. .JWs are a perverse cult that is denounced by Christians.

Quote: " If God knew billions of people would be tortured forever, why would he create them?" Funny you ask, cause God does not want robots to worship Him. John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."

You evidently cannot answer my query, "If God knew billions of people would be tortured forever, why would he create them?" God gave me no choice about being born. I would rather not be born than to be forced to choose between two terrible places called Hell and Heaven. I demand millions of fine choices, not just two terrible ones. God is worse than a mugger who points a pistol at you and says, "Your money or your life!" God's Heaven and Hell are both terrible choices, and I do not want either of them. God gives us a similar choice to a mugger but even infinitely worse. Isaac Asimov said that if they existed, Heaven would be worse than Hell. Think about that.

Quote: "You evidently cannot answer my query," I just addressed your remarks. We are human beings and not ROBOTS. Quote: "God gave me no choice about being born." Use the logic of a traffic yield sign. When you are driving in a bad direction, you are always FREE to yield in traffic.

I was drafted by my professor to be a tutor in Logic at a university. You did not answer my remarks Logically.. If God is omniscient, he foresees the future, and we are just puppets, not robots. We can only do what he foresees. God does not give us a choice about being born. If I knew that I would be tortured forever, I would certainly choose not to be born. I am not free any more than a victim of a mugger is free. He must hand over all of his money or be killed. Even worse than that, I must choose between Heaven and Hell, but I hate them both. Richard Dawkins said that God was the worst monster in fiction. That is true. Other religions have much more desirable after lives. I read Greek and Norse myths while I was in elementary school. I studied the main world religions. in college and on my own. I told some of this to my oldest nephew. He asked his mother-my oldest sister if God was just a myth like Zeus and Odin. Sis started taking him to church every Sunday and quarreled at me for teaching him to think for himself. It was too late, so he has been an atheist since he was in high school. Parents brainwash their children with their religions, and that makes them robots. Evidently, my oldest nephew and I overcame being made a puppet, but you could not.

Quote: "If God is omniscient, he foresees the future, and we are just puppets, not robots." I addressed your remarks repeatedly. It's not the answer you want to hear, since it goes against your remarks. Quote: "If God is omniscient, he foresees the future, and we are just puppets, not robots." The only way humans can be puppets is if our lives have no meaning. God knows our destiny already. By our freewill, He does not interfere with our lives. God dignifies us with freewill, the power to make decisions of our own. The Bible teaches God created humans in His image. (Genesis 1:26) Unlike animals, which act mainly on instinct, we resemble God in our capacity to display such qualities as love and justice. Once again, God does not want robots to worship Him.

I am an expert in Logic, and you use Logical Fallacies, absurd lies, vicious insults and quote many Bible passages that are merely extremely bad fiction. You have no sensible addressing ability. My life has more meaning than giving a con artist-pastor 10% of my money. I spend my money on myself and some on my niece and nephews. I am wearing an A. Lange & Sohne tourbillon watch. Current tourbillons cost $28,000 to $888,000. Mine cost $211,000 in 2017. I own 58 fine watches, but I have not bought any watches for preachers-con men. It is certainly not free will when we cannot choose not to be born and we have only two horrible places to go after we dies. As I have said that is even worse than a mugger saying, "Your money of your life!" That is far from being free will. You say God knows that billions of people will be tortured forever. He is a monster. God is a dumb tyrant who is full of hate. Count all of the people he killed in the Bible. If he existed, he would be the worst mass murder in history. God is unjust. Yes, God does want mindless robots. Christian parents are told to brainwash their children with that vile religion. My youngest sister just started a prayer group on Facebook. I shall not join it.

Sounds like you've got a lot of childhood issues Pei and that has sent you on some mission to be rude to all theists blaming them for how your fundamentalist parents treated you, maybe you need to deal with the way your parents treated you and how that's affected you, that would be far more helpful Pei and will give you freedom from all that anger, than just acting it out like this, I'm truly sorry that whatever has happened has hurt you, and I hope you find some peace, I wish you well Pei.

Pei, quote: "I am an expert in Logic, and you use Logical Fallacies," Uhh, you have said nothing logical. Freewill is the idea that we are able to have some choice in how we act and assumes that we are free to choose our behavior. In other words we are self-determined to choose from right and wrong.

Creamcrc..., I have no childhood issues. I am not rude unless someone starts it. Christians are bad to start quarrels and claim the other person did. You are not a psychiatrist. You try to invent faults for me and deny your own. One of the 10 Commandments forbids you from bearing false witness. You ignore passages that are inconvenient.

Jenny, I earned an A+ in Logic , and my professor asked me to tutor his classes. He told me I was the best student of Logic that he ever had. You are not qualified to judge Logic. It is you who say nothing logical. Only two bad choices is far from genuine free will. I demand millions of fine choices, not just two bad ones. There are more than right and wrong. You hypocrites do not follow your Bible very well. You know nothing of True Logic and falsely accuse me of being illogical. Thou shalt not bear false witness and judge not lest you be judged.

Pei, quote: "I earned an A+ in Logic , and my professor asked me to tutor his classes." On the internet without having anything to show for, you can be and pretend to be what you want. But when you speak of the word "logic," your remarks are illogical. You should be able to understand that freewill is a matter of making decisions. You say you don't believe in God - that's your freewill to believe what you want. You wouldn't appreciate if you were forced or programmed to believe in God as if you were a robot.

Pei also claims to have bench pressed over 800 pounds (when the world record is 770 pounds). As the old proverb says "Big boast, small roast."

Jenny, my parents tried to program all of their children to believe in God. I see that my youngest sister has a prayer group on Facebook. My oldest sister said she gives her church $50 a month. I am the only one in my family who resisted the forcing and programming. Churches want robots. People who can think soon realize that religion is a con game based upon naive primitive fiction. Free will is not being forced to choose whether you will give your money to a mugger or be shot. You do not believe in Zeus, Jove, Enki, Marduk, Ahuramazda, Asshur, Baal, Amon, Ra, Odin, Wotan, Svarog, Quetzalcoatl and milllions of other gods. You are incapable of judging Logic. If God is omniscient and thus knows the future, I have no choice in the matter. I certainly know that freewill gives you many fine choices, not only two bad ones. I have some free will about choosing a profession. There are certainly many professions, but the Bible deity says, "Kiss my 'zhopa' or burn forever"!. That is most certainly not free will. It is crass tyranny. It is like a mugger saying, "Your money or your life" or a slave owner telling his slaves to pick cotton or be whipped. You show again that you have no Logic. It is ironic that so many people who know nothing whatsoever about logic claim to be logical and then refute such a claim.

bost...., the superheavyweight world record Bench Press is 1075 lbs. You need to do some research. There are different rules in different contests. Your proverb applies to you and Jenny, not me.

bostjan64, I also like to boast a lot. So moving me out of the way is not easy. That's how boastful I am. :D

Pei, quote: "my parents tried to program all of their children to believe in God." That's bad parenting. One thing is teaching kids about Religion, another is to shove Religion down their throats. It seems like your parents forced you to accept their religious beliefs. So I can understand you want to be set free. Although you just keep getting enslaved with Religion. Don't expect everything you say about Religion will be ignored by me or my other religious members. It goes against Scripture to give more money to a church than you can handle. It's all about the cheerful giver in whom God takes into consideration. Quote: " If God is omniscient and thus knows the future, I have no choice in the matter." With the religious people you encounter online, you never know if becoming religious is your only matter, now that Religion keeps haunting you. Indeed, you have not been set free.

Members of all religions brainwash their children with their religions. If not for that, there would be very few theists. My brother and two sisters are brainwashed, but I overcame it. I am free from all religions. I do not expect fanatics to ignore me when I refute their groundless beleifs. The last three Christian churches I attended all had three offerings- regular offering, special offering and building fund. They were Chinese United Methodist Church, Chinatown Presbyterian Church and Japantown Presbyterian Church. Tell all of this to Pat Robertson who has conned $100,000,000 from gullible fools. Religion is not haunting me at all. You make so many absurd false assertions about me, e.g. claiming I am small and out of shape because I do not like jeans. That is the worst reasoning I have seen for a long time. In truth, I am huge and extremely fit. I lift barbells, run 7 miles 3 day a week, practice martial arts 3 hours every morning, etc. Yes, I am free. I know a puritanical woman. She finds my jokes offensive. One of my past lovers Kumiko from Japan and I love to joke, tease and play pranks. She is a retired actress-model. She posed for 25 photo books and was paid $400,000 for each one, so that is $10,000,000 she earned just for that. Please try to make sense. I use many categories on Answerbag and Yahoo Answers. I forget about religion when I am not seeing it on two Q&A websites. . .

Quote: "Members of all religions brainwash their children with their religions." But you did not mention any Christian denominations to back up your claims. Muslims are famous for forcing their religious views on their children. It is rare if you hear Christians force their religious views among children. Once again, Christians can teach their children about Religion, just as kids learn about Santa Claus. it doesn't mean that children who believe in Santa are his followers. They just believe in him by folktale. When we speak of radical religions like Islam: a Religion is a set of beliefs that is held by a group of people that is reflected in a world view and in expected beliefs and actions which are often ritualized. There are many different religions in the world, but each with a different set of beliefs, as each Religion has different ideas about these things.

Quote: "Pat Robertson who has conned $100,000,000 from gullible fools." Pat Robertson represents Christendom. I could not care less what he says. The Bible warned us of all so-called pastors who are leading the herd astray. 2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

@Pei Chia-Li: Appeal to authority is one of the logical fallacies. So, rather than boast about how great your logic is, why not show us some great arguments to back it up? Also, I think we all know about how huge you are. I've posted the records here for you to see plenty of times. You have only responded in such ways that prove that you have no idea what you are talking about. You accuse me of boasting, but what have I boasted about?! I have reached the conclusion that you are a silly person, and suspect that you might be a dupe account, from your ambiguous vocabulary and the style of your insults. I bet most long time users here know exactly who I'm talking about.

bostjan64. I have been on the new Answerbag for 3 years already. I know who most AB'ers are, even when they create sock-puppet accounts. Pei Chia-Li is a member called ReiSan: https://www.answerbag.com/profile/reisan I found that out on various subjects about fashion.

ReiSan thinks they are a female ex-magazine model and Pei Chia-Li thinks they are a male world-record-smashing bodybuilder. Any reasonable person would not argue with the conclusion you have drawn (I would go so far as to say that any reasonable person would reach the same conclusion), but that statement is contrary to information given by both ReiSan and Pei Chia-Li, therefore, those two are not reasonable people.

Sandra Ursula, ReiSan, Venus1485, and Pei Chia-li are all the same person. https://www.answerbag.com/profile/sandra-ursula https://www.answerbag.com/profile/reisan https://www.answerbag.com/profile/venus1485 https://www.answerbag.com/profile/pei-chia-li

On the old answerbag, it(Pei Chia-li) had so many sock puppets that it was hard to keep up. The Chief deleted several as they would gang up on people. To have sock puppets is allowed on answerbag but to use them to gang up on someone in a malicious was is apparently against the rules.

bostjan64, whatever celebrities they claim to be does not matter. They have nothing to show for. What there is to show for are their sock-puppet accounts. Honestly, I only use 1 AB account. I never understood the purpose of creating numerous sock-puppet accounts.

Texasescimo, ganging up on people is a tactic to get rid of certain members. I have been on the new AB since late in 2017, so it does not work with me.

I could still gang up on someone without using multiple accounts. It would probably be just as silly and confusing as Reisan and SandraUrusla and Pei-Chia-Li ganging up on a person without varying their distinctly strange speech patterns and word usage. LOL

Lol

bostjan64, I don't need other people's help or sock-puppet accounts to gang up on people. I am a one woman gang, and I am everywhere on Answerbag with plenty of time to address my feedback. If I do miss some feedback (due to), not getting notified, I will most definitely make a U-turn so I don't miss all the fun. :D

Gehenna was literally the place the ancient Hebrews burned their trash outside of the city. The argument that these passages mean that the people's souls or bodies literally go into the rubbish dump outside of the city of Jerusalem and not a supernatural place that we call "hell" in English has been debunked a number of times on this site and is pretty easily shrugged off by anyone with one modicum of sense. I guess it's something that they teach at the JW church or something, but if you try to rationalize it, you'll see that it's nonsense as soon as you start to dig into it.

Thanks for the thoughts. So, I’m going to take just a few of the points you made and answer those. First, God is loving and he does not want people to suffer. Satan raised the issue of His right to rule in the Garden of Eden. Jehovah God could have destroyed him then but he has allowed him to rule over this world to prove that he is an unfit leader. If he had destroyed him other Angels would have wondered if Satan was actually could have ruled better. Second, 1 John 5:19 tells us that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked on(Which is Satan) He is the reason that all the badness exists. 2Timothy 3:16:17 tells us that all the scriptures are inspired of God, and that they are beneficial for teaching so that we may be competent and equipped for every good work. Read the Bible for yourself. Don’t listen to man. Go to the site jworg and type your topics into the search bar and look up the scriptures for yourself. You can also request a free home bible study. If you are interested we could do one over zoom or the phone.

Thanks for the kind words. I do not see how introducing Satan as another creation of a benevolent God solves the paradox, though, since, even if Satan was acting upon Satan's own free will to deceive man, 1. God created Satan with free will knowing everything, including the fact that Satan's free will would lead to the eternal suffering of billions of people and 2. God created Adam and Eve knowing that they were too stupid to resist Satan, leading to the eternal suffering of billions of people. Therefore, either A) God is malevolent or B) God is a story made up by leaders to control the masses through fear.

1. Refer to Matthew 25:41-46. There is eternal punishment for those who rejected Jesus. Whether you call it "hell" or something else, it is still the same basic concept. 2. If God created hell, or whatever you call the thing you don't call hell that is an identical concept, and God created Satan with the knowledge that Satan would guide people to hell, or whatever you want to call it, how is the culpability deflected? If God controls all things, then the buck stops there.

Then when Jesus was "not forsaken in Hades/Sheol" was he in Hell? and since he was a Jew, did Ecc. 9:5 & 10 not apply to him? Adam's penalty for sin was simply death according to Gen account. Eternal torment was invented in Babylon and was never applied to Christian teaching until 300 years after Jesus' death. By definition, there is eternal life or death. Not eternal torment; That too is eternal life. The illustration you refer to has been refuted by most Bible scholars as a misapplied parable.

"Then when Jesus was "not forsaken in Hades/Sheol" was he in Hell?" The majority, but not all, of Christians believe that He was. "did Ecc. 9:5 & 10 not apply to him?" I'm not sure where you are going with that. Has His name been forgotten? If not, then obviously not. "Eternal torment was invented in Babylon and was never applied to Christian teaching until 300 years after Jesus' death." Okay, so, is your stance that the Book of Matthew was written 300 years after Jesus' death, because that's the passage that mentions eternal torment. "The illustration you refer to has been refuted by most Bible scholars as a misapplied parable." *citation needed. Read the passage. It isn't like there is a whole lot of room for interpretation about the eternal torment part of the story.

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/ved/p/punish.html Bible Dictionaries Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words Punish Resource Toolbox Print Article Additional Links Dictionary King James Dictionary Punish Punished Vines' Expository Dictionary Punish Webster Dictionary Punisher Punished Punish Lexicons 1: ?????? (Strong's #2849 — Verb — kolazo — kol-ad'-zo ) primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;" it is used in the Middle Voice in Acts 4:21 ; Passive Voice in 2 Peter 2:9 , AV, "to be punished" (RV, "under punishment," lit., "being punished"), a futurative present tense.

Everlasting fire is symbolic of everlasting cutting-off or the second death. (Matthew 25:41) “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. (Matthew 10:28) And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge?hen?na. (2 Peter 2:6) and by reducing the cities Sod?om and Go?mor?rah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come; (Jude 7) So too Sod?om and Go?mor?rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire. (Revelation 20:14) And death and Ha?des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. (Daniel 12:2) And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, these to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches [and] to indefinitely lasting abhorrence. (2 Thessalonians 1:9) These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, (Matthew 25:46) And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

You might want to clean up your copy/paste a little, because as it is right now, it's very difficult to read. Also, aside from that, I'm not clear what you are saying.

Where do people go if they are not bad enough to earn their way into Hell, but not given enough grace from God to enter Heaven?

Purgatory, which if you investigate (see Newman) will make perfect sense

Stop with the spam already!